Expanding the Conversation: Jonathan Sarna

Welcome to the first episode of Expanding the Conversation, a new podcast from The Jewish Theological Seminary. This season, we bring you insights from Zionism: Today, Tomorrow, and Beyond, a JTS convening that explores the evolving meaning of Zionism and the Israel-Diaspora relationship.

In this episode, Dr. Jonathan Sarna, Joseph H. & Belle R. Braun Professor of American Jewish History and Director of the Schusterman Center for Israel Studies at Brandeis University, explores the roots of North American Zionism. He discusses how technological advancements—particularly steam travel—enabled the practical realization of Zionist aspirations. Dr. Sarna also examines pivotal historical moments, from the pogroms of 1881 to the rise of anti-Semitism in Vienna, which shaped the movement’s trajectory. Additionally, he highlights the role of Louis Brandeis in reshaping American Zionism and argues for reclaiming and embracing the term “Zionism” in contemporary discourse.

Discussion Questions:

  • Dr. Sarna argues that steam travel was a key technological factor that made Zionism possible. How does technological advancement shape political and ideological movements? Can you think of other historical or contemporary examples where technology transformed a movement’s feasibility?
  • Sarna notes that 1881 was an “October 7th moment” for Jews, when optimism about their place in Russia collapsed. How does historical trauma shape political movements? Can we draw parallels to more recent global events?
  • Dr. Sarna stresses the importance of embracing and reclaiming the term “Zionism” rather than allowing others to define it negatively. How do labels and terminology affect public discourse, and what are effective ways to engage in conversations about contentious terms?

Show Notes

Transcript

Ellie Gettinger
Welcome to Expanding the Conversation, a podcast series that brings the Jewish Theological Seminary to you. We kick off this series with messages that emerged from Zionism Today, Tomorrow and Beyond. A convening that took place at JTS in October 2024. During the convening, the speakers reflected on the Israel Gaza War, October 7th, and the plight of the hostages. However, much of the conversation was directed around how do we, as North American Jews, engage with Israel, and how will this relationship continue to evolve?

This is a perfect time to revisit these discussions and to consider the role that Zionism has played and will continue to play in our Jewish communities. I’m Ellie Gettinger, director of outreach for the Center for Lifelong Learning, and I will be curating this series, which will highlight key messages from the convening itself, and intimate interview discussions with specific speakers.

In this episode, we hear from Dr. Jonathan Sarna. Dr. Sarna is the Joseph H. And Bell R Braun, professor of American Jewish History and director of the Schusterman Center for Israel Studies at Brandeis University. He presented in the panel the Roots of North American Zionism. In his talk Sarna focused on specific events that led to the evolution of Zionism, both globally and in the U.S..

Jonathan Sarna
I wanted to talk about kind of multiple beginnings and roots of Zionism. The first will surprise many people because we are used to thinking of Zionism in intellectual terms. But the truth is, just as today, the digital revolution lies behind so many developments. So the great Industrial Revolution, specifically steam travel, made Zionism possible. Had there not been steam, there would never have been Zionism.

It’s easy to show that. In 1800, when Jews thought about how to get to a Zion, so they talked about flying on eagle’s wings or going on a cloud to Zion. In other words, and it is true everywhere, they assumed supernatural means would be required. But steam meant we know how to get there, we know how to begin, how to end. Steam transformed the very idea of travel. The very first ship from America to get to the land of Israel in steam travel is very famous because Mark Twain was aboard. He wrote a book Innocents Abroad. The ship was called the Quaker City. […]So suddenly going back to Zion is practical.

I don’t have to wait for eagles and cloud. I know how to do it. And we often forget how technology underlies crucial developments. So that’s point one.

Ellie Gettinger
In your talk, you focused on steam as a motivating factor for the modern Zionist movement. How is technology impacting Zionism today? And is there room for positive engagement?

Jonathan Sarna
I think the technology often has both positive and negative aspects to it. So social media is amazing and that’s transformed all of our lives, oftentimes in positive ways. But at the same time, we have seen how social media can promote divisiveness, conspiratorial fantasies, fake news and the like. I think the same was true of printing, which is even better than steam, the equivalent.

We’ll look at the digital revolution as no less impactful than the print revolution. Well, print obviously had amazing impact and implications for the world, but it also had very deleterious effects and allowed all sorts of minority, dangerous voices to be heard. It allowed propaganda, it allowed pornography and so on. There is no way to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

It’s not like we can do without the digital revolution or artificial intelligence and so on. But I think just as with printing, so with the digital, we will perhaps have to better learn how to police it and what I pointed out with regard to steam, where eventually it did, in that case, it took a long time. It took a generation until you moved from a little steamboats in the Great Lakes till you had, only in the post-Civil War era, steam boats that could make it all the way to Europe and the Middle East, that was harnessed for the benefit of the people generally.

And that’s what I hope will happen with new technology today, that it will, similarly, we’ve already benefited in many ways, those of us who write are quite grateful to word processing. You know, one hopes that we will learn how to maximally benefit, even while mitigating some of the inevitable evils that come along with the digital.

Ellie Gettinger
Let’s return to Dr. Sarna’s talk at the meeting where he addressed other developments in the 19th century that led to the emergence of Zionism.

Jonathan Sarna
1881 was, if I can be anachronistic, was an October 7th moment in Jewish history. Prior to the assassination of Alexander II in 1881, Jews in Russia were actually very optimistic. They had a liberal czar. He had freed the serfs. He had made life better for Jews. And they were very optimistic. All came crashing down after 1881. To read those descriptions in the wake of October seventh: The first meetings in synagogue, some people cried for 15 minutes. In one brilliant account, that Dubnov preserved. Why? Because every thing they believed and hoped collapsed. They saw no hope. Suddenly all their hopes had been dashed and suddenly there were two possibilities. The movement is sometimes called “L’An” Whither? Where should we go on? Should we go to America? Should we go to Palestine? There were important debates between the two.

There were crucial differences. If you went to America, you didn’t think the diaspora qua diaspora was the problem. You thought particular governments, particular modes of organizing society were the problem. But a different diaspora could work fine and the liberal idea would be preserved. If you felt that Zion was the only way to solve the problem, like the Hovevi Zion, then you believed no diaspora was safe for Jews. The only possibility was to go and build a Jewish land. So that was the second beginning.

And the third in the 1890s what had begun in Eastern Europe. Suddenly, Vienna, Vienna, which is about 9% Jewish, and Vienna suddenly has an antisemitic mayor. And antisemitism is running rampant in Central Europe, public in a way that it had not been before. The American writer Mark Twain is in Vienna at that time and is shocked. And he writes a number of essays. His most famous essay, which bears rereading, is called “Concerning the Jews.” It’s very interesting that in concerning the Jews, based on his experience in Vienna, Mark Twain mentions Theodor Herzl and Herzl’s plan. I can tell you, because I’m writing a book on it, that Mark Twain knew Theodor Herzl. There is correspondence between them. This wasn’t just, I’ve been reading, but in any case he cites Herzel and the plan for Zion. He a little bit pokes fun at Herzl’s idea. But if you read through the joke, you can also see why he respects the idea. And certainly the the rise of antisemitism in places where Jews had not expected it played a big role in promoting Zionism.

Ellie Gettinger
He then provided insight into the growth of the Zionist movement in the United States.

Jonathan Sarna
Even worse, America was becoming more and more restrictionist. There are more and more calls to end immigration. It’s changing America. These immigrants, they’re unassimilable. They didn’t use the word garbage, but it was pretty close. And they are inferior to the real Americans. Louis Brandeis, who is not yet a Supreme Court justice, living in Washington, he was tremendously aware of these currents, even though he had not been involved in Jewish matters.

He felt suddenly a surge of responsibility. We’ve got to do something to help save Jewry. And when Jacob de Haas, who was an agent of Herzl, that was the editor of the Jewish Advocate, comes to him, he he responds and he agrees to take on the leadership of the Zionist movement. Remember, the leadership had been in Germany, which is the enemy. So suddenly there’s a big reorganization Brandeis takes over. One can never underestimate the importance of Louis Brandeis. I say that not just because I teach in university named for him, but Brandeis, because of who he is, is able to remake the Zionist movement in a way that made it exciting to Jews and to Americans generally. Basically, he makes it part of the progressive movement and part of Woodrow Wilson’s broader strategy to spread the American dream outward.

All that he wanted to accomplish in America, only some of which was accomplished he thought could be accomplished in the new Commonwealth. That’s a new word, and it’s a Brandeis word. And his friends, social commonwealth and so on will be accomplished in Zion. In other words, for Brandeis and for American Jews, Zion becomes a projection of America, as it ought to be, and that’s what they are going to build in the land of Israel.

This is a mission. Brandeis considers it the most exciting project, and he was involved in some pretty exciting ones, that he’s going to do. And then, of course, Brandeis is appointed to the Supreme Court, and that’s fabulous for Zionism. How can you say Zionism is un-American if such an important Zionist is on the Supreme Court? Or as Brandeis and his supporters said, Woodrow Wilson doesn’t seem to think it’s un-American. And so Brandeis has a lot to do with the fact that Zionism grows during World War I, it actually grows four fold.

Ellie Gettinger
Later, I asked him about why we should be discussing Zionism right now.

Jonathan Sarna
I was thrilled to see this conference, and that part explains why I got in the middle of the night last night and so on, why I made the effort. It’s so important not to be defined by the opposition. They want to turn Zionism into a dirty word. We have to embrace it and highlight it. Far better was to embrace the very word that they scorned. To explain why we embrace it and to take pride. And I think there’s much reason for Jews to be proud of Zionism and all that it accomplished to have the courage to embrace the word Zionism even amidst opposition from many circles, some of them Jewish, deeply commendable and important. It will empower people to self-define a Zionism and also to study what was one of the most impactful movements of the last 150 years.

Ellie Gettinger

Thank you for listening to this episode of Expanding the Conversation. Next time, we will hear from Dr. Eilon Schwartz, founder of Shaharit and Senior Lecturer at the Melton Center for Jewish Education at the Hebrew University. He will continue this theme of pluralism, focusing on the particular challenge communicating and building trust, particularly between Israeli and North American Jewish communities.

If you want to see complete footage of this session or any of the sessions of the JTS convening “Zionism: Today, Tomorrow and Beyond,” you can find the link on our website Site. jtsa.edu/torah/podcasts. Look for the “Expanding the Conversation” icon. Each episode includes discussion questions for individuals or groups to consider and links to our speakers, organizations, and publications. If you would like to attend a convening, you can find information about our upcoming programs at jtsa.edu/convenings.

I’m Ellie Gettinger, director of outreach for JTS. This podcast was produced by me with editing assistance by Sarah Brown and technical support from Chris Hickey, Director of New Media. This is a production of the Jewish Theological Seminary. No part of this podcast may be reproduced or transmitted in any form, without the written permission of the Jewish Theological Seminary. The views expressed herein may not be those of the Jewish Theological Seminary.

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